Driving techniques on the Dragon

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

Ok, so I need to distract myself from the government closure. My latest obsession is steering techniques. But I'm also wondering about braking techniques in the turns.

 

I was taught hand over hand turning in High School, but I now realize that is not the best way to steer. Last year at the Dragon I heard talk of shuffle steering and push/pull steering. So I did my own research and thought the push pull looks like it gives the most control. Then I realized there are basically two schools of thought on that. Hands high (2:00 / 10:00) or hands low (5:00 /7:00). So I have experimented with both and yapped with Craig about it. I like the lower hand position better. Mostly because in the upper hand position instinct kicks in and I keep doing hand over hand, but from the lower position I remember that I'm trying push/ pull. Given this obsession I have watched carefully on Top Gear. Jeremy pretty much does hand over hand with his hands mostly at 3:00/ 9:00, Richard does the push pull method from below, and I can't really get a good look at James. They never show the stig in a turn but his hands are always at 3:00 - 9:00.

 

So then comes decelerating into a turn. I have mostly heard don't use your brakes use your engine and down shift. Then at the Falls Color Run, one of the guys said that brakes are cheaper then engines and he uses his brakes.

Now I'm sure with this there are probably better times to use your brakes and better times to use your engine. I tend to be very literal and try to do the same thing all the time.

 

So what do you guys do? Thoughts?

 

Ali

[Yarsay]

So then comes decelerating into a turn. I have mostly heard don't use your brakes use your engine and down shift. Then at the Falls Color Run, one of the guys said that brakes are cheaper then engines and he uses his brakes.

 

 

Why not both?? Heel + toe FTW!

 

I drive at 10 and 2 when I'm cruising but usually move to 9 and 3 if there are any serious turns. I guess I 'push', meaning if I'm turning to the left I push more with my right hand to turn. I find it much less tiring and easier to control when my hands are 180 degrees opposed on the wheel.

 

I think the suggestions now to drive at 4 and 8 / 5 and 7 are to prevent oversteer since it's much harder to overcorrect when your hands are in that position. I still think it gives you much less control than 9 and 3 though.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Yarsay
whoops spelling

[carman63]

I thought the lower hand positions (5-7) were to help prevent arm injury in case of an airbag deployment. :questionmark: Less control that way, however.

 

I recall the same thing from FCR, being told that it's cheaper to replace brakes and a clutch. But I think a little of both is the best approach.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

I thought the lower hand positions (5-7) were to help prevent arm injury in case of an airbag deployment. :questionmark: Less control that way, however.

 

I recall the same thing from FCR, being told that it's cheaper to replace brakes and a clutch. But I think a little of both is the best approach.

 

Jim, it was you that told me about the brakes vs clutch. I couldn't remember who it was. I think with brakes vs clutch you also need to consider the grade of the road. If you're on a downhill, you can burn your brakes a lot easier, so you would probably be better off shifting down.

 

My understanding is the lower hand position is more stable. Your arms are more stable with elbows down then elbows up. With the push pull method I feel like I have more control. My arms never cross which makes sense to me.

[Edge]

The problem with relying on brakes only on the Dragon, if you're driving it aggressively, is that you can wear your brakes down to where they are very hot. My first hard run on the Dragon, the first year, I did just that. I ended up with brakes that were literally smoking at Tabcat Bridge.

 

Needless to say, I waited a full half hour before I went back, with the car parked in gear and the handbrake off... to make sure they had plenty of time to cool down.

 

11 miles of hard driving with frequent, heavy braking is brutal on your brakes, so be careful!

[cmcveay]

Haemish's comment is on the money with regards to overheating your brakes.

 

Compression/engine braking aren't harmful to the engine, transmission, clutch - any more so than normal driving.

 

Mechanical breaking (excessive) on the other hand will overheat your brakes and they will start to fade and ultimately (ever noticed the emergency stoping areas for big trucks?). Fry your brakes and you better be a damn good driver because they don't recover quickly and you'll just keep accelerating down hill until you can unload that kinetic energy...

 

The science behind all of this is why I encourage everyone to go to the autocross school or one of the other driving classes! You'll learn more than just driving around orange cones in a parking lot! You learn what changes in throttle and brakes do to understeer/oversteer and all kinds of great stuff like that. Essentially, you are exposed to knowledge and skills that CAN make you a better driver.

 

Between the defensive driving course I did with the Sheriff's department, an executive's DD course and autocross school, I can say that the 3 & 9 position is heavily emphasized along with not crossing over (automatic failure of that event with the Sheriff's course). Yes, some of it is in recognition of airbag safety but mostly, it's because we don't need such a "powerful" position at the top of the wheel.

 

Good luck on taking your mind off of the furlough.... Looks like it's gonna happen anyway. Come over on Sunday and we can make signs! "Furloughed worker", "Will detail for $$$$"

[Mr EZ]

I think for all practical purposes the position of 3-9 or 2-10 depends on each person's level of comfort. I use the pull and push method. Now the most important ting is that your arms have enough flex space so that, in case you need to, the can cross over to maneuver a tail spin.

 

Breaking mechanically during the full course of the bend can be very dangerous, not only because of the overheating of the brakes, but also because if you don't have torque in the motor and you slow down, the centrifugal force will pull you out, leaving you in the ditch or, worse, down the embankment. The purpose of the down shift is to give the car the necessary "force" to fight the centrifugal force that pulls it out in a straight line. You must TAP you breaks just before the begging of the curve so that you get rid of so momentum and then let the force be with you......

 

My two cents.

 

Now I'm glad Ali hasn't seen James's driving technique, cause he being the slow one, I don't think that he would be a good role model.

 

As per price tags, I think I would gladly pay for clutch and brakes than for a brand new car and a hospital bill.

[orcadog]

I’m just thinking “out loud” here – and this is definitely NOT a poke at you – but if it were me, I know it’s been my experience that changing the way I do things (when you already must be doing them fairly right or you wouldn’t still be with us) and doing so in an unfamiliar place might not be the best idea. I know it’s not “The Ring” but plenty of crazy stuff happens on the dragon, and I guess I’d want to be in my comfort zone when dealing with the unexpected rather than thinking about how I’m gripping the wheel or if I’m matching rev’s correctly or, well, you get the idea. Again, not that you aren’t capable of processing all that, I’m just sayin’ that it might diminish the fun factor a bit.

THAT BEING SAID….

Juan Manuel Fangio, one of the greatest drivers of all time, is said to have embraced the shuffle style of steering, but I've seen footage of him with a hand at or near the 12 O'clock position, really working the leverage. So I got thinking and I came to the conclusion that as with most things, there is no singular way that is best at all times.

 

For instance, I’m pretty much a 10&2 or 9&3 kinda guy in my MINI. With a little push/pull action from the bottom rather than going hand over hand if more degrees of steering angle are needed. Personally I do this because my LSD equipped R53 likes to “wander” out of hard turns a bit so I want to have my leverage as close to equal on both sides (while it makes up its mind what side of the road it wants to be on) and still be able to ease the wheel back to dead center.

 

In my Lifted SUV with big tires, I’m all shuffle from the bottom when hustling it through the twisties or in the dirt. I think that’s because of the bigger steering wheel and the much lower steering effort - I can let the wheel glide through my hands as it unwinds and the much higher mass means that it doesn’t change direction as quickly (vs. the MINI where it is too quick to snap back to dead center). Should I over rotate in the SUV, I’m quick to jump back to the more aggressive 10&2 in order to “catch it”. I think the strength in our arms and shoulders is maximized with the more “overhand” grip of the 10&2. So self preservation instinct I think demands that we return to that position where leverage is greatest when we have one of those “oh poop!” moments.

 

Lastly, when I am Karting, I’m all 9&3 or maybe even 8:30&2:30 with a lot of push/pull in the tight corners. There is so much grip that you are constantly wrestling with the wheel and I find that that combination tires me less and gives me good control. The steering wheel angles on a kart are such that you don’t have to be able to move the wheel much, but you do have to work to keep it steady at the angle you need.

 

 

 

If there was a point to any of that, other than for me to hear my keyboard clicking away - It's that IMO it takes a combination of techniques to get the most out of what you are doing.

 

Anyhoo, thanks for getting me thinking about that – I’m going karting this weekend at Summit Point and I’m surely going to geek out and analyze what I’m doing!

[Scavenger]

Would this help? :laugh::laugh::laugh::motor:

 

 

Oh Sh**, there goes my man card!

[Scavenger]

Hey, on a serious note, I think orcadog gives good advice, I don't think the Dragon is the best place to try too many new things. Not just regarding driving styles, but also mods. That's partly why I posted the thread about mods a few weeks back. Finding out that something wasn't correctly bolted back together when you're full lock on The Whip isn't a pleasant thought.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

I'm trying to understand this stuff, but I know on the Dragon 30 years of instinct will kick in and I'll steer and brake like I do.

 

It's still interesting to study technique

 

Ali

[cmcveay]

Agree that it's not the place to try new things but take a look at the original post... Ali has been working at this for a while, she's not waiting until Deal's Gap to try it out.

[Mr EZ]

Ali,

 

I guess the best technique is the one that you feel comfortable with, regardless of what it is, or a combination of things. YOU are the only one that can judge that and it will be the one to decide that makes you succeed slaying the Dragon !!!!!

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

You're right Rick!

 

I just find in everything I do, I study technique. It's what I do.

On the run this weekend I found I was able to use some of my new steering techniques and it was helpful, felt more stable as I went into the turns.

 

Ali

[maacodale]

Hand positioning is crucial in performance driving and racing. But corner entry and exit is of greater importance. Picking a good line through the corner is also important. Best rule of thumb: "Easy in, power out". Enter the corner under control and on line that will give you the best possible exit. All too often people charge into a corner and have to wait for the tires and suspension to catch up and make the car work to get through the corner.

 

Generally, taking a late apex and putting down the power earlier will give you a better feel through the turn instead of punishing your front tires with a too fast entry.

 

But hey, that's just me.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

Hand positioning is crucial in performance driving and racing. But corner entry and exit is of greater importance. Picking a good line through the corner is also important. Best rule of thumb: "Easy in, power out". Enter the corner under control and on line that will give you the best possible exit. All too often people charge into a corner and have to wait for the tires and suspension to catch up and make the car work to get through the corner.

 

Generally, taking a late apex and putting down the power earlier will give you a better feel through the turn instead of punishing your front tires with a too fast entry.

 

But hey, that's just me.

 

This is all really interesting. I am always a bit confused when the driving gets more spirited as to how to enter a corner, when to downshift etc.

[maacodale]

This is all really interesting. I am always a bit confused when the driving gets more spirited as to how to enter a corner, when to downshift etc.

 

Lets go for a ride when we're in Fontana.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

Lets go for a ride when we're in Fontana.

 

Don't have to ask me twice!

[Edge]

 

Don't have to ask me twice!

Lots of us are happy to give rides!

[cmcveay]

If you want to add some real excitement, Take a ride with Ali DRIVING! Of course, you won't get the full effect of the adventure since there's no cell phone coverage down there so she won't be on the phone and since there's a passenger, she won't be singing and playing air guitar:rock:. You will however enjoy the "pucker factor" of having her waving at all of the oncoming cars as she hits the entry, apex, and/or exit of the turns...:hello: I seem to remember my comments as the passenger being something like "TWO HANDS ALI, TWO HANDS!" and "NO, NO, NO, I'LL WAVE, YOU DRIVE!" and my my most repeated plea "I'LL WATCH THE FLOWERS!, YOU WATCH THE ROAD!". Of course, I had to filter my actual comments to keep this thread rated PG...

 

I fully agree with your comment Dale, it's more about the line you take and how you take it (considering the vehicle and how it's set up) than your physical driving style (which is important). I've said this part before but it bears repeating over and over and over... Everyone is encouraged to participate in the educational parts of performance driving training. Lots of local car clubs have training/skills courses for autocross, track/road racing and they all teach the driving techniques and the "science" behind that "best line"... There's nothing like walking through the concepts and then, getting out and actually applying them in a controlled environment.

 

I still say you should get the full Ali & TGGRR experience!:motor:

 

Haemish - Is there a sign up list for rides?

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

If you want to add some real excitement, Take a ride with Ali DRIVING! Of course, you won't get the full effect of the adventure since there's no cell phone coverage down there so she won't be on the phone and since there's a passenger, she won't be singing and playing air guitar:rock:. You will however enjoy the "pucker factor" of having her waving at all of the oncoming cars as she hits the entry, apex, and/or exit of the turns...:hello: I seem to remember my comments as the passenger being something like "TWO HANDS ALI, TWO HANDS!" and "NO, NO, NO, I'LL WAVE, YOU DRIVE!" and my my most repeated plea "I'LL WATCH THE FLOWERS!, YOU WATCH THE ROAD!". Of course, I had to filter my actual comments to keep this thread rated PG...

 

I fully agree with your comment Dale, it's more about the line you take and how you take it (considering the vehicle and how it's set up) than your physical driving style (which is important). I've said this part before but it bears repeating over and over and over... Everyone is encouraged to participate in the educational parts of performance driving training. Lots of local car clubs have training/skills courses for autocross, track/road racing and they all teach the driving techniques and the "science" behind that "best line"... There's nothing like walking through the concepts and then, getting out and actually applying them in a controlled environment.

 

I still say you should get the full Ali & TGGRR experience!:motor:

 

 

HEY!!! There weren't any flowers there

 

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

I may have done some waving while driving

 

:wavey:

[Brian0758]

One comment I would make is to try and stay in your comfort zone on the public roads. :top: The best place to learn performance driving is by participating "in the educational parts of performance driving training" as stated by Craig.:motor: I agree 100% with taking a performance driving class. :top:

 

I attended a Phil Wicks MINI Driving Academy at Virginia International Raceway since I was new to front wheel performance driving and wasn't sure how the Mini would handle in extreme driving. It was well worth it since I could drive beyond my comfort zone in a controlled environment with an instructor. A few other DCMMr's attended and they also got a lot out of the class.

 

Be safe and have fun :rock:

[Mr EZ]

When are we going back to the track?????? It's been too long .........

[CarlB]

Maacodale makes some good points. The Dragon will reward paying close attention to the correct line. Like most roads, and race tracks, a late apex is generally the fastest way around. A lot of people describe that as slow in fast out. Think in terms of where you want the car pointed when you are on the inside of the corner or apex. With the car pointed toward the corner exit as opposed to requiring more turning of the wheel, you will be able to get on the gas sooner. You might be surprised how late and sharp you have to turn to do it. The other aspect of a late apex is it is a lot safer. Remember the slow in part. If you use your brakes as hard as would be required to really go as fast as possible on the Dragon they will likely overheat. The Dragon is much harder on brakes than any race track I can think of. There isn’t any time to cool then down. To address the question about braking or engine braking there is no simple answer. Think about it from how tires develop traction. A tire will develop more traction the more weight it has on it. When you brake, turn, or accelerate weight or load moves off some tires onto others. The wrench in the works is that while the amount of grip or traction a tire will develop goes up the more weight it has on it, the increase in grip is not proportional to the amount of weight being transferred, so the affect is increasing grip to a point, but once the centrifugal force pushing the car to the outside of the turn reaches a point you have less traction or grip. Race drivers have to know how to do a number of things well, but optimizing grip is one of the most important. Have I fully confused everyone?

I like to drive the Dragon quickly without using much brake. I concentrate on the correct line. The corners on the Dragon flow together and I find that you can develop a rhythm to your driving, much like you would on a race track if you are going fast and really have your head into it.

Edited April 13, 2011 by cmcveay
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[TGGRRR (Ali)]

When are we going back to the track?????? It's been too long .........

 

I've never been, I really want to go