Intercooler improvement

[Gart]

This is what the stock intercooler looks like from an 09 mcs.

 

[Gart]

Aftermarket installed... no cutting or drilling required,direct bolt in.

 

[rickyr53]

who's the intercooler from?

[Gart]

Helix

[TATTRAT]

that is a VAST improvement over OEM! What a sad little sliver of an IC.

[maacodale]

Feel any "seat of the pants" difference?

You know, the old Butt Dyno!

 

Very interested. I talked to the Helix guys at the Dragon about the IC.

[that7guy]

Feel any "seat of the pants" difference?

You know, the old Butt Dyno!

 

Very interested. I talked to the Helix guys at the Dragon about the IC.

 

Adding a larger intercooler won't increase power. Did you notice any turbo lag or loss in psi?

[cmcveay]

The larger/more efficient intercooler actually does help make more power. By cooling the pressurized intake air charge coming out of the turbo, you get a denser air/fuel mixture which then increases the potential of the engine. Yes, there are factors to consider such as the efficiency of the intercooler and the ability of the car to even take advantage of the new mixture but a more efficient IC can allow the engine to make more power.

 

I had Jan (RMW) tune Archi last year and the one component that Jan suggested upgrading was the IC. About 6 months later, I installed an aftermarket IC (I went with the Forge), my tune was tweaked for it and yes, I noticed a difference in the "butt dyno". Not so much before the updated tune but definately after (as a result of the better intake air temp).

 

Yes, I see/feel less lag and certainly no loss in boost pressure since I'm seeing over 20psi now.

 

With the OEM IC, a functional hood scoop and a DDM Street works intake, I typically saw a difference of about 12 degrees between the intake air temp and the ambient air. When idling at a light, the intake air temp would start climbing immediately (sometimes to more than 50 degrees over ambient) and it would drop slowly once in motion. During autocross or other "spirited" driving activities, the delta would grow a bit, sometimes to 20 degrees and the cool down time was drawn out.

 

With the aftermarket IC, the "normal" difference was roughly the same but the improvement came with how slowly the intake air temp would rise and how quickly the intake air temps dropped after being stopped. Also, autocross and those other activities didn't see such a large delta.

 

The larger IC doesn't "heat soak" as badly as the OEM.

 

Last week, I got rid of the DDM Street intake and installed a DOS CAI. With a little under a week of driving, one thing I've noticed is the "normal" intake air temp vs. ambient. Driving to work this morning (as the sun was coming up), the temp difference was 3-7 degrees.

 

Sorry for the long reply but I felt it was appropriate for this thread.

[that7guy]

First off, I’m not that familiar with the MINI turbo systems or a Jan tune but I do know a thing or two or five about building my own forced induction systems and tuning them myself. One of the first things I learned is to never trust a butt dyno. I cant tell you how many times I thought my tune was running perfect until I got on the dyno and was disappointed.

 

In response to your post I was specifically commenting on Garts situation. Obviously if you are running a heavily modified system with 20 PSI then yes, you would see a huge benefit with a larger IC for all the reasons you mentioned. Since Im not familiar with Garts car, I assumed that the IC was the only mod he had while running stock boost. Hence why I asked if he had seen a drop in boost, or turbo lag.

 

In my own personal situation I upgraded my intercooler around 6PSI and saw my boost pressure drop down to about 5.5. Max boost was also reached around 3.5K instead of they usual 3. It wasn’t until I started running 12+ PSI that I saw a increase in power. Now at over 22PSI I’ve maxed the efficiency of the largest intercooler that I can get to fit. Personally I prefered the instant boost and low heat soak of the smaller intercooler.

 

Remember, the air being pushed out of your turbo cant get through your throttle body until the intercooler is entirely filled with air. The larger the intercooler, the longer it takes for the air to get through.

 

Granted this is all under the assumption that the stock MINI intercooler is 100% efficient at stock boost. If its horribly undersized (which it may be), then you may see a very slight difference on a very hot day. But you would be surprised how efficient small intercoolers can be.

Edited June 8, 2011 by that7guy
i failed spelling class

[cmcveay]

Sevan,

I had to chuckle at your reason for editing... I can relate.

 

Like you, I don't put much faith in the "calibrated butt cheeks" dyno and Archi hasn't been back on the dyno since the initial tune so my "impression" of improved performance doesn't have any documentation, just sensation.

 

I can, and do, watch the temps and the pressures so I know how that's changed with the different mods. Having the tune tweaked to take advantage of the better air quality certainly gives me the sensation of improved performance.

 

I know that Gart has an RMW tune as well so I'm hoping he'll chime in with his impressions.

 

I think the Turbo MINI (non JCW) sees an improvement with the larger intercooler because they are hitting 14-16 psi without mods so the higher pressure lets them fill that larger void quicker. You are right, the volume of the larger intercooler can have an impact upon the boost pressure, turbo lag and boost lag but there are ways to mitigate those things. The higher pressure we are running takes care of the first and a better exhaust and a few tricks with the diverter valve helps with the rest.

[that7guy]

I suppose every set up and situation is different. I guess i cant compare Miatas to MINI's

[Gart]

I don't believe in the butt o meter either :motor: What I can tell you is that I did not buy the larger ic for a performance improvement but more of a cya because after the rmw tune higher boost means higher temps so for an extra added safety factor and piece of mind for me. As for boost..no idea no gage yet..thats next on my list. I do not detect any noticable turbo lag probably due to the fact that smaller turbos spool faster than larger ones.The ic claims less than 1/2 psi boost loss across it so thats quite good. What I can say is under moderate acceleration in 2nd gear 60 mph comes quickly it feels and pulls strong,under hard acceleration it smokes the tires. You catch me at another dcmm event we can go for a ride and see how it makes your butt feel.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

OK, what is a butt o meter :questionmark:

[Gart]

I could put my hand on it and show you but the hubby would not approve so its aka..seat of the pants feel.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

So the butt dyno is just how it feels to you, vs put it on an actual dyno to see what it's really doing...

[Gart]

Ding! :top:

[that7guy]

The butt dyno is how fast you feel your car is. Not to be confused with the real dyno that tells you how fast you car actually is.

[that7guy]

I don't believe in the butt o meter either :motor: What I can tell you is that I did not buy the larger ic for a performance improvement but more of a cya because after the rmw tune higher boost means higher temps so for an extra added safety factor and piece of mind for me. As for boost..no idea no gage yet..thats next on my list. I do not detect any noticable turbo lag probably due to the fact that smaller turbos spool faster than larger ones.The ic claims less than 1/2 psi boost loss across it so thats quite good. What I can say is under moderate acceleration in 2nd gear 60 mph comes quickly it feels and pulls strong,under hard acceleration it smokes the tires. You catch me at another dcmm event we can go for a ride and see how it makes your butt feel.

 

1/2 psi boost loss, is 1/2 psi too much IMO. If you are smoking tires in 2nd gear under hard acceleration, you should invest in some stickier tires. Just sayin

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

I'm too literal, I was sitting here thinking there was something you could really feel with your butt, if only you knew how. :idea:

 

You may resume your geek talking...

[cmcveay]

Ali - there are times in life when ya just don't say anything...

 

Stickier tires! My wheel spin issue went away with the Star Specs.

 

I agree that 1/2 psi could be noticed (on the dyno) but the tune unlocks the boost map and you end up making much, much more.

[Gart]

I have run flats for tires atm. So im open for suggestions when its time for some better rubber. :motor:

[that7guy]

R-comps.... :rock:

[rickyr53]

 

 

 

Now at over 22PSI I’ve maxed the efficiency of the largest intercooler that I can get to fit.

 

 

 

Are you running 22 psi on your Mini or Miata?

 

Would this do you any good lol....sucks that you have to pull the A/C

http://www.grsmotorsport.co.uk/r53frontmount.html

[cmcveay]

So the butt dyno is just how it feels to you, vs put it on an actual dyno to see what it's really doing...

 

Ali - look at all of the places that sell aftermarket performance accessories and they have their claims about what different things will do for performance. Most quote an increase in horsepower or torque or both. Most offer no documentation to support that claim. Some offer a dyno sheet that suggests they've actually tested the components on a dyno and have proof.

 

So yes, the "butt dyno" is what you perceive to be an improvement but without any documentation to back it up.

 

Some "butt dyno" readings have stated that the are putting 500+ HP to the wheels and they find that a run on the dyno ends up deflating those numbers significantly.

[TGGRRR (Ali)]

I gotcha, it's a funny expression :rofl: